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	<title>Comments on: Comparison of Current Bear to Bear Markets of 1929, 1973-74, 1987 suggests Dow 3,500 possible</title>
	<atom:link href="http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/</link>
	<description>A stock trading blog by Dr. Wish</description>
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		<title>By: Giuse</title>
		<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-461</link>
		<dc:creator>Giuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wishingwealthblog.com/?p=1144#comment-461</guid>
		<description>WATSON: Good points. That&#039;s why the current administration will have to increase tax on the wealthy, and decrease tax on middle class. Also, it seems you don&#039;t believe in the &quot;tricle-down theory&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WATSON: Good points. That&#8217;s why the current administration will have to increase tax on the wealthy, and decrease tax on middle class. Also, it seems you don&#8217;t believe in the &#8220;tricle-down theory&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>By: George Watson</title>
		<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-457</link>
		<dc:creator>George Watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wishingwealthblog.com/?p=1144#comment-457</guid>
		<description>The primary determining factor in recovery of economies is
1. the amount of wealth disparity among the population when the depressions starts and
2. how quickly a regulatory/policy adjustment happens to allow the majority of the population to regain spending power. (2. will happen faster becuase a policy shifting election just took place. If McCain had been reelected likely it would have been delayed four more years unless he was really a tax the rich liberal running under the Republican umbrella which is very doubtful.)

Some market dips are psychological and those factors don&#039;t matter but this one is clearly driven by the fundamental lack of spending power of the population.
the disparity of income is what allow ed those who predicted this collapse to predict it. 
The disparity matches or is worse than 1929.
However there is another factor tha tis worse than 1929 and that is that much of the population not only has little wealth - they actually have NEGATIVE wealth becuase of the loose debt - so their hole to recover from to return to a spending consumer is larger unless debt forgiveness becomes government policy.

One can calculate what the dow should be base don estimates of sale the companies could have based on the spendable income of the current consumer&#039;s actual monthly spending power and then applying reasonable PE ratios to those estimated corporate sale and combining them for a DOW. (I won&#039;t tell you what me numbers say their becuase I sell that info for big money.)

however it is safe to say that their are few consumers in the USA with ANY spendable money now (most or in debt holes) and so they will only spend for essentials which now only include food, water, temperature control - significantly housing mortgages are dropped from that list - that&#039;s how low the monthly consumer spendable income is.

In a nutshell though the bottom is that number.

That market bottom number changes if debt forgiveness is announced as public policy (which it has to be becuase most debts aren&#039;t even being serviced so without forgiveness the consumer NEVER gets back to spending in the economy.)

the only other thing besides debt forgiveness that instantly change the market bottom number overnight are increases in the minimum wage which instantly increases consumer spending the month it goes into effect.

Lastly (but not in importance or effect) government spending increases the market bottom however you must apply a higher PE ratio to companies sales based on government spending becuase if the consumer wealth problem isn&#039;t solved the government spending isn&#039;t sustainable for more than a few years therefore you can&#039;t value the stock permanently based on that short term increase in sales from government spending. (there is one exception to that - if the government increases it&#039;s taxes on those who can pay now then government CAN sustain that spending.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The primary determining factor in recovery of economies is<br />
1. the amount of wealth disparity among the population when the depressions starts and<br />
2. how quickly a regulatory/policy adjustment happens to allow the majority of the population to regain spending power. (2. will happen faster becuase a policy shifting election just took place. If McCain had been reelected likely it would have been delayed four more years unless he was really a tax the rich liberal running under the Republican umbrella which is very doubtful.)</p>
<p>Some market dips are psychological and those factors don&#8217;t matter but this one is clearly driven by the fundamental lack of spending power of the population.<br />
the disparity of income is what allow ed those who predicted this collapse to predict it.<br />
The disparity matches or is worse than 1929.<br />
However there is another factor tha tis worse than 1929 and that is that much of the population not only has little wealth &#8211; they actually have NEGATIVE wealth becuase of the loose debt &#8211; so their hole to recover from to return to a spending consumer is larger unless debt forgiveness becomes government policy.</p>
<p>One can calculate what the dow should be base don estimates of sale the companies could have based on the spendable income of the current consumer&#8217;s actual monthly spending power and then applying reasonable PE ratios to those estimated corporate sale and combining them for a DOW. (I won&#8217;t tell you what me numbers say their becuase I sell that info for big money.)</p>
<p>however it is safe to say that their are few consumers in the USA with ANY spendable money now (most or in debt holes) and so they will only spend for essentials which now only include food, water, temperature control &#8211; significantly housing mortgages are dropped from that list &#8211; that&#8217;s how low the monthly consumer spendable income is.</p>
<p>In a nutshell though the bottom is that number.</p>
<p>That market bottom number changes if debt forgiveness is announced as public policy (which it has to be becuase most debts aren&#8217;t even being serviced so without forgiveness the consumer NEVER gets back to spending in the economy.)</p>
<p>the only other thing besides debt forgiveness that instantly change the market bottom number overnight are increases in the minimum wage which instantly increases consumer spending the month it goes into effect.</p>
<p>Lastly (but not in importance or effect) government spending increases the market bottom however you must apply a higher PE ratio to companies sales based on government spending becuase if the consumer wealth problem isn&#8217;t solved the government spending isn&#8217;t sustainable for more than a few years therefore you can&#8217;t value the stock permanently based on that short term increase in sales from government spending. (there is one exception to that &#8211; if the government increases it&#8217;s taxes on those who can pay now then government CAN sustain that spending.)</p>
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		<title>By: Giuse</title>
		<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-456</link>
		<dc:creator>Giuse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wishingwealthblog.com/?p=1144#comment-456</guid>
		<description>Colleagues: interesting comparison, but the past is not the key to the future nor the present! Today&#039;s dynamics in the stock market are completely different. La-ti-daaa!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colleagues: interesting comparison, but the past is not the key to the future nor the present! Today&#8217;s dynamics in the stock market are completely different. La-ti-daaa!</p>
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		<title>By: Mr Risk</title>
		<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-453</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr Risk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wishingwealthblog.com/?p=1144#comment-453</guid>
		<description>Japan 1991. 

Fundamentally the same. Governmentally the same. Analogically the same. The chart swings are even similar.

Only thing that is different is that this collapse is globally synchronized; more along the lines of the 1930&#039;s.

But Dr. Wish! You are a professor, a student of science. May I criticize and say, you don&#039;t have enough data points (3 cases) to come to a statistically reasonable conclusion. Even adding Japan 1990&#039;s, and 2000-2003 bear market, we still have only a handful. Add all the minor bear markets, and we still have a random roll of the dice.

Isn&#039;t it enough just to take it day by day, and wait for the GMI and other market risk indicators to show us the light? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Japan 1991. </p>
<p>Fundamentally the same. Governmentally the same. Analogically the same. The chart swings are even similar.</p>
<p>Only thing that is different is that this collapse is globally synchronized; more along the lines of the 1930&#8217;s.</p>
<p>But Dr. Wish! You are a professor, a student of science. May I criticize and say, you don&#8217;t have enough data points (3 cases) to come to a statistically reasonable conclusion. Even adding Japan 1990&#8217;s, and 2000-2003 bear market, we still have only a handful. Add all the minor bear markets, and we still have a random roll of the dice.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it enough just to take it day by day, and wait for the GMI and other market risk indicators to show us the light? <img src='http://wishingwealthblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-452</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wishingwealthblog.com/?p=1144#comment-452</guid>
		<description>James, you sound bearish but that first link seems to be quite old and suggests that a P/E of 10 would be attractive, and the second link has the S&amp;P at 10.5x. Sounds promising to me.

Eric, first of all I love the blog and the principles of your style. Absolutely one has to be patient in the decline. But in this case I think the comparison is proved to be unhelpful. I&#039;m surprised it seems to lead you to be dismisssive of T2108 which seems to have a better record of tracking swings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, you sound bearish but that first link seems to be quite old and suggests that a P/E of 10 would be attractive, and the second link has the S&amp;P at 10.5x. Sounds promising to me.</p>
<p>Eric, first of all I love the blog and the principles of your style. Absolutely one has to be patient in the decline. But in this case I think the comparison is proved to be unhelpful. I&#8217;m surprised it seems to lead you to be dismisssive of T2108 which seems to have a better record of tracking swings.</p>
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		<title>By: BORSARO</title>
		<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-451</link>
		<dc:creator>BORSARO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 06:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wishingwealthblog.com/?p=1144#comment-451</guid>
		<description>In my opinion yu are right to compare the severity of this decline to &#039;29, but maybe is to be considered the different approach to the market of today&#039;s times. In 1929 they have no idea of what on line trading could be, so this could develope moves and countermoves very faster and &quot;complete the game&quot; in a shorter time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion yu are right to compare the severity of this decline to &#8216;29, but maybe is to be considered the different approach to the market of today&#8217;s times. In 1929 they have no idea of what on line trading could be, so this could develope moves and countermoves very faster and &#8220;complete the game&#8221; in a shorter time.</p>
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		<title>By: Maple</title>
		<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-449</link>
		<dc:creator>Maple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 01:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wishingwealthblog.com/?p=1144#comment-449</guid>
		<description>Good post, Eric.  We&#039;ve been tossing around a possible Dow 3000 since the November lows.  Here&#039;s what Richard Russell has to say:

&#039;On last Friday&#039;s site I brought up the matter of the 50% Principle. When Dow 7470 was violated, the 50% Principle turned bearish, which is another fact which is both discouraging and hard to swallow. With the 50% Principle, the Dow is now technically able to test the low from which the huge bull market of 1982 to 2007 began -- that low was 776.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, Eric.  We&#8217;ve been tossing around a possible Dow 3000 since the November lows.  Here&#8217;s what Richard Russell has to say:</p>
<p>&#8216;On last Friday&#8217;s site I brought up the matter of the 50% Principle. When Dow 7470 was violated, the 50% Principle turned bearish, which is another fact which is both discouraging and hard to swallow. With the 50% Principle, the Dow is now technically able to test the low from which the huge bull market of 1982 to 2007 began &#8212; that low was 776.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://wishingwealthblog.com/2009/02/comparison-of-current-bear-to-bear-markets-of-1929-1973-74-1987-suggests-dow-3500-possible/comment-page-1/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://wishingwealthblog.com/?p=1144#comment-446</guid>
		<description>I think most telling is that recent earnings have dropped more that stock prices.  Markets bottom at low PEs.
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/technical/04/020404.asp
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3021-peyield.html?mod=topnav_2_3000</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think most telling is that recent earnings have dropped more that stock prices.  Markets bottom at low PEs.<br />
<a href="http://www.investopedia.com/articles/technical/04/020404.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.investopedia.com/articles/technical/04/020404.asp</a><br />
<a href="http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3021-peyield.html?mod=topnav_2_3000" rel="nofollow">http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3021-peyield.html?mod=topnav_2_3000</a></p>
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